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I disagree with the statement, "We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why."
We always train with the users' samples because we want to make sure the instrument is adjusted for their samples so they have methods to reuse, we want them interested in what they are doing, and we want to assess the samples to provide advice for improvement or experimental design improvements.
We have our samples on standby to check the instrument or explain what a good sample should look like if theirs don’t work.
Michael Cammer, Sr Research Scientist, DART Microscopy Laboratory
NYU Langone Health, 540 First Avenue, SK2 Microscopy Suite, New York, NY 10016
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-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Armstrong, Brian
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
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Hi All, like most it seems, we do not charge for training. We want people to seek training. We ALWAYS train with our own sample because...well, being Core Directors yourselves, you already know why. I go into Confocal theory a little during training and I do not expect that a nascent user will "learn" how to use a Confocal, and to absorb everything I taught them, with 1 exposure. I consider the next visit the second half of their training. It takes users approximately 3 visits before I would consider them trained enough to use a Confocal on their own.
Moreover, the training never really stops. We are constantly sharing our expertise. Right? As such, we do not differentiate pricing for assisted and unassisted usage. We want users to ask for help so that they may acquire the best images possible.
My 2 cents. Thanks,
Brian Armstrong PhD
Associate Research Professor
Developmental and Stem Cell Biology
Diabetes and Metabolic Diseases
Director, Light Microscopy Core
Beckman Research Institute, City of Hope
-----Original Message-----
From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 8:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
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Hi Terri,
I wonder if you could also put the onus on the user to contact you if they do use it the required number of times in the first two weeks, then you could just verify on the calendar that that was the case. If they don't contact you then they're charged by default. That's probably ok so long as it states somewhere that this is the case. If money is involved you'd expect people would remember to notify you. Something for us to think about anyway.
Thanks,
Matt
--
Matt Pearson
Microscopy Facility
MRC Human Genetics Unit
Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road
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On Aug 21, 2018, at 3:49 PM, Terri Bruce <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Hi Matthew!
We literally give them a coupon! It’s a small piece of paper that the trainer signs and dates, and then the user brings their coupon back to the facility. Once we have it, we apply the discount to their imaging account. (We do use equipment logs, electronic key entry that works using personal ID badges, and one of us is usually in the facility, so we pretty much know who is coming in and out.) We then have a student intern that checks our coupon box every day. The student intern signs and dates the “received by” date on the coupon. Then, the coupons go into a file for the month and are applied when we calculate hours for invoicing. Probably not 100% foolproof, but it’s MUCH better than retraining and retraining the same people over and over!
So far, it’s worked well. I haven’t caught anybody trying to copy coupons, forge names, or bring coupons back without actually getting on the machines. That’s not to say that someone won’t try at some point, but I think at that point, it becomes a lot to worry over to reclaim $60 or so!
Terri
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From: Confocal Microscopy List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of PEARSON Matthew
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Core Facility Training Fees
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Hi all,
I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig. We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue. But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them? Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?
Thanks,
Matt
--
Matt Pearson
Microscopy Facility
MRC Human Genetics Unit
Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM) University of Edinburgh Crewe Road
EH4 2XU
On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
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Hi Kelvin
we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.
The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.
With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs
Best Ralf
Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:
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Hi Kelvin!
We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!
To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!
We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!
Hope this helps!
Terri Bruce
Clemson Light Imaging Facility
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Hi all,
This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
I look forward to your replies!
Kind regards,
Kelvin
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