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Hi all,
I quite like the sound of Terri and Ralf's approach, as we have this issue sometimes where people use the scope once and that's it post training or don't come back for a long time and need re-traininig. We don't currently charge for training which could be partly why we have an issue. But i wondered how you actually keep track of who has come back in the two week's or a month post the training in order to reimburse them? Do you rely on facility management software for this or do you just have to keep a very vigilant eye on who is booking and when?
Thanks,
Matt
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Matt Pearson
Microscopy Facility
MRC Human Genetics Unit
Institute of Genetics and Molecular Medicine (IGMM)
University of Edinburgh
Crewe Road
EH4 2XU
On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Ralf Palmisano <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
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Hi Kelvin
we made the same experience as Terry. Our regulation now says, that initial training on a given system (2 - 4 hours dependng on system) is free if the respective researcher starts using that instrument within for weeks after training on a somewhat regular basis. If not he will be charged 4 hours instrument usage and 4 hours support. Instruments in Germany are listed in three grades depending on complexity of the system.
The scientific support is rated according to the grades of the instrument (20, 40 or 60 € an hour). We explain this with that 2 - 4 hours of introduction keeps my scientific staff from doing project support or other duties. So if someone only sends his undergraduates or PhD students or post-docs to learn a technique without using it, this is by definition not the scope of the facility.
With more than 45 research groups this has so far been accepted and agreed by all PIs
Best Ralf
Am 21.08.2018 um 04:02 schrieb Terri Bruce:
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Hi Kelvin!
We found that PIs were sending new lab members to us for training, but because they weren’t assigned to a specific project, they were not returning to use the instrument in a timely manner. So, we ended up doing a great deal of RE-training and wasting our time!
To alleviate this issue, without charging a great deal for training, we now have a set training fee. Then, to encourage people to come back and practice using the machine in a timely manner, we give them two free hours on the machine IF they return within two weeks of their training...essentially refunding the training fee. If they do not return within two weeks, we keep the training fee...because it means we’re probably going to have to retrain them at some point!
We haven’t had any pushback with this system. It provides a “free” training option for those who are serious about needing/ wanting to use the equipment, while also making sure that those who don’t return aren’t wasting both our time and our money!
Hope this helps!
Terri Bruce
Clemson Light Imaging Facility
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 20, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Kelvin Poon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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Hi all,
This is a addressed mainly to core facility staff/managers but I welcome feedback from the community in general.
We've had several labs complain about us charging training fees on top of the hourly rate of the instruments. These training fees are charged based on the complexity of the instrument e.g. widefield all the way to multiphoton/lightsheet. Their argument is that since the core facility staff are on a salary, it is thus our job to provide training for free. As you can imagine this has caused quite an uproar on both sides of the argument, so much so the upper brass is now 'looking into their concerns'.
In our collective opinion, if you do not put a value on something, it will not be taken seriously. If there is a fee charged for training, the onus is on the staff to provide proper training beyond how to push buttons (education and tailoring the technique to their sample) and the trainee to pay serious attention to get the most out the instrument and avoid damage. The training also goes for several hours and we do follow ups on the user's first time on the instrument and beyond if necessary. If there is no value in the training, there is no incentive for either party to put in their utmost effort. Doing a quick internet search of microscopy core facilities just in North America alone, 9 out of 10 charge various training fees from high to low. Of course it's not the monetary amount but the principle of it. What is proper, usable data worth to a PI? How much money is poured into a project to turn it into a paper(s)? Certainly a $100 training fee is very small price to pay for data that will go towards a publication?
I look forward to your replies!
Kind regards,
Kelvin
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Ralf Palmisano
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