Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
In response to Dale's comments, I would like to support his statements about
the real costs associated with developing, marketing and building product
which HAS to perform as described. Regarding the source of these costs, the
information below goes some way to explain what goes into a productionised
LED source.
Some products have a single interchangeable LED wavelength. CoolLED uses
three interchangeable LED wavelengths mounted in its precisExcite LED
fluorescence source. These LEDs are in the form of LED Array Modules (LAMs)
- which can be up to 96 LEDs built on a single module. We package these
LEDs ourselves in order to achieve optimum thermal control and coupling to
the light-guide. The cost of the bare LED semiconductor material is
trivial. The cost of manufacture is high, requiring expensive
high-tolerance capital equipment and quality control procedures. We
guarantee that these LEDs will last for over 10,000 hours / 3 years of
actual use - although we expect they will last indefinitely for many users,
as they only need to be switched on for the amount of time you would have
the shutter open using a bulb system.
To guarantee this lifetime, we have to build and test extensively before we
know that we have a stable high-power LED array. In addition, we use active
temperature control (Peltier) to ensure that the LEDs are always operating
within their defined parameters. LEDs are considered "efficient" but still
produce at least 70% heat so cooling is essential. When the LAMs are
interchanged, the system has been designed to recognise, through software on
the LAM, which wavelength has been installed and reset the optimal operating
parameters in the main unit.
So, there are design costs, material costs, assembly costs, manufacturing
equipment costs, testing costs, engineering personnel costs and, yes,
inevitably the cost of a few "suits". If you measure the value the product
provides to your research, by making available a stable, fast-switching,
repeatable light-source with no bulbs to replace and align every few weeks
or months, you can decide if it is worthwhile for you.
JIM Beacher
CoolLED/ precisExcite
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-----Original Message-----
From: "Confocal Microscopy List" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 08/11/2007 18:25
To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: LED price ?
Search the CONFOCAL archive at
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
Hi all,
Back to Jeremy Adler's original question - why are the cassettes so
expensive and the LED modules so inexpensive...
Because the manufacturers want to recover the costs of developing the
turnkey systems with very advanced features. I love a good deal and a
DIY project, but we all know how many hours can go into this sort of
thing (electronics, optics, machining...) and that is what you pay for.
Yes you also pay for "suits" to go to tradeshows, etc, and there is the
"Dilbert/The Office" factor in the background, and yes they know that
you will find the money to get it regardless, so there you go. But
generally you will get a functional and well engineered product if you
read the specs, demo actual product, and we keep these lists going to
keep them honest ;-)
That said, could some manufacturer step up and tell us about the
"intellegent electronics" in the LED cassette? People would at least
feel better justified about paying the costs if they knew the wonderous
things (optical feedback stabilization? Temperature monitoring and
protection/compensation?) that happen in the cassette along with the
inexpensive LEDs.
Cheers,
Dale
Barbara Foster wrote:
> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal Ironically,
> Craig, that is basically what the Fraen system does. Their intelligent
> electronics senses which LED cassette has been plugged into the
> illuminator and automatically adjusts the amperage. Good thinking!
>
> Best regards,
> Barbara Foster
>
> *We've moved!
> *Microscopy/Microscopy Education
> 7101 Royal Glen Trail, Suite A
> McKinney TX 75070
> P: (972)924-5310
> Skype: fostermme
> W: www.MicroscopyEducation.com
>
>
> <http://www.microscopyeducation.com/>MME is now scheduling customized,
> on-site courses through December. Call us today for details.
>
> P. S.
> Need a good general reference or light microscopy text for next
> semester? Call us today to learn more about "Optimizing LIght
> Microscopy". Copies still available through MME... even for class-room
> lots ... and we give quantity discounts. Just call us here in the MME
> office for details.
>
> At 10:00 AM 11/8/2007, Craig Brideau wrote:
>> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal While
>> different color LEDs usually require different voltages, they tend to
>> have similar current requirements. Why doesn't somebody just throw
>> together a constant current source? Then it wouldn't matter what LED
>> you plug into it as such a source intrinsically adjusts its voltage.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> On Nov 7, 2007 11:11 AM, Barbara Foster <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>
>> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>> Hi, Jeremy
>>
>> The price is for an LED cassette, which includes intelligent
>> electronics. Since each LED requires a specific voltage to drive
>> it, the ability for the system to sense which LED cassette has
>> been inserted is critical, especially for 2-channel or 3-channel
>> imaging. And yes, you would have to buy several LED cassettes.
>> However, when you consider that the lifetime is in excess of
>> 30,000 hrs (I spoke to a diagnostic company yesterday who OEMs
>> this system and they told me that, in practice, it was often in
>> excess of 50,000 hrs) and there is often a better S/N ratio, it's
>> not a very big investment compared to a mercury arc.
>>
>> Hope this was helpful,
>>
>> Barbara Foster, President
>>
>> We've moved!
>> Microscopy/Microscopy Education
>> 7101 Royal Glen Trail, Suite A
>> McKinney TX 75070
>> P: (972)924-5310
>> Skype: fostermme
>> W: www.MicroscopyEducation.com
>>
>>
>> <http://www.microscopyeducation.com/>
>> MME is now scheduling customized, on-site courses through
>> December. Call us today for details.
>>
>> P. S.
>> Need a good general reference or light microscopy text for next
>> semester? Call us today to learn more about "Optimizing LIght
>> Microscopy". Copies still available through MME... even for
>> class-room lots ... and we give quantity discounts. Just call us
>> here in the MME office for details.
>>
>> At 05:06 AM 11/7/2007, you wrote:
>>> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>>>
>>>
>>> re the informative posting on LEDs by Barbara Foster
>>>
>>> catalogue prices for LEDs seem to be very low, so how come
>>> Cost of LED cassette: Eu720 ?
>>> which seems to be a couple of orders of magnitude greater.
>>>
>>> In addition you would need to purchase several LEDs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeremy Adler
>>> Cell Biology
>>> The Wenner-Gren Inst.
>>> Arrhenius Laboratories E5
>>> Stockholm University
>>> Stockholm 106 91
>>> Sweden
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Confocal Microscopy List on behalf of Barbara Foster
>>> Sent: Tue 06/11/2007 17:27
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject: Re: Non-arc source for IX-81 - semi commercial
>>>
>>> Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>>> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>>>
>>> Dear Glen
>>>
>>> As a strategic consultant in microscopy, I get to see the latest
>>> technology and there is, indeed, a great deal of flurry about
>>> LED
>>> technology. In the summer of 2006, I had a chance to
>>> evaluate the
>>> AFTER/FluoLED from Fraen and was very impressed with the
>>> design, ease
>>> of use, and flexibility. I have been working on assignment with
>>> Fraen more recently and was surprised to see how much both LED
>>> technology and this product line had evolved. So here are
>>> observations on both LED technology in general, and the Fraen
>>> system
>>> in particular.
>>>
>>> Fraen's FluoLEDs are now available in UV (354nm), Royal blue
>>> (450nm),
>>> Blue (480nm), Cyan (505 nm), Green (535nm) Yellow (590nm) and
>>> red
>>> (630nm). While Fraen is a new name in the microscopy arena,
>>> most of
>>> you already know them: they are the world's largest
>>> manufacturer of
>>> the LEDs used for the pointers/indicators for the
>>> speedometers, gas
>>> gauges, etc., on the dashboard of your cars.
>>>
>>> Until recently Fraen's AFTER/FluoLEDs were only available in
>>> transmitted light version for upright microscopes, currently,
>>> over 17
>>> different models from all the major manufacturers and several
>>> of the
>>> smaller ones. For us "old timers", transmitted light has
>>> typically
>>> been seen as less efficient, but the superb images from
>>> FluoLED tell
>>> a very different story: Bright features against wonderfully
>>> velvet
>>> black background. In other words: great S/N. Fraen will be
>>> releasing the first systems for inverted stands next month
>>> and have
>>> begun work on an epi version as well.
>>>
>>> As with any technology, there is up side/down side to LEDs
>>> The good news is the consistency, lack of fuss, and economy of
>>> LEDs. When they are on, they are on. When they are off and
>>> you need
>>> them on, you can turn them on immediately - no cycle time.
>>> Also, they exhibit much less drop off over time than HBOs.
>>> That time
>>> factor is critical. Life expectancy of an HBO is on the
>>> order of
>>> 200-300 hrs; for Fraen's LED's (I don't have figures on the
>>> others)
>>> 30,000 hrs. No error in decimal points here: you can run
>>> them 8 hrs
>>> a day, 5 days a week, for 5 years without changing a lamp.
>>> If you
>>> plot drop-off versus time, a 100 fold increase in time is
>>> significant, especially for those of us doing long term
>>> experiments.
>>> When it comes time to switch out the lamp, there is no
>>> alignment, no
>>> disposal issue.
>>> The economy issue is also an interesting. Fraen's European
>>> office
>>> did the following calculations (Euros) for the LED cassette
>>> for a
>>> standard Blue excitation kit vs. an HBO arc lamp:
>>> Cost of LED cassette: Eu720 Cost of HBO lamp: 160
>>> Lifetime LED casette: 30,000hrs Lifetime HBO lamp: 300 hrs
>>> Eu/hr LED cassette: EU 0.024 Eu/hr HBO lamp: Eu
0.53
>>> Assumption: if you run both systems for 2000 hrs/year
>>> Cost of LED cassette/yr: Eu48 Cost of HBOs/year:
>>> Eu1060.
>>> Savings, using LEDs: Eu1012
>>>
>>> One more bit of good news: LEDs are also a much cooler source so
>>> there is dramatically less photobleaching.
>>>
>>> The down side really isn't very down, just something to be
>>> aware of.
>>> Because of the state of LED technology, green and yellow LEDs
>>> generate less power so the resulting images will be somewhat
>>> less
>>> bright than with HBO. This is not much of an issue when the
>>> fluorescence is viewed at magnifications up to about 60x but
>>> if you
>>> routinely use 100x objectives, you should run the test to see
>>> if it
>>> is a problem with your particular samples. The good news is
>>> (a) for
>>> green LEDs, research is powering ahead. Fraen expects to
>>> have new,
>>> brighter LEDs in Feb 08. (b) For Yellow (Texas red, etc.),
>>> research
>>> is slower. However, they also have a good news side: they
>>> exhibit
>>> better S/N ratio, even at the lower power, than HBO.
>>>
>>> The FluoLED family has a number of things to recommend it:
>>> a. They have engineered a clever "multi-cube" device so that
>>> you can
>>> have 1 LED, 2 LEDs, or 3 LEDs and can switch conveniently
>>> from one to another
>>> b. For multi-user labs, the LED cassettes can be switched
>>> quickly and
>>> easily. This feature reminded me of the old Reichert
>>> Polyvars, one
>>> of my favorite microscopes, especially for teaching. The
>>> fluorescence (and reflected light DIC and Darkfield) cubes
>>> came on
>>> "lolly pop" sticks so that you could just slide in what you
>>> needed. FluoLED has mimicked that flexibility with their
>>> cassette
>>> approach. A lab can have a set of cassettes sitting in a
>>> drawer next
>>> to the microscope or each group can have what they need in
>>> their own
>>> area, so they can have whatever excitation/emission they need
>>> by just
>>> plugging in their cassette and tightening the locking
>>> screw. Immediate change out... no alignment!
>>> c. Fraen has engineered intelligent electronics into their
>>> controllers. Different wavelength LEDs require different
>>> amperages
>>> to drive them. With Fraen's system, when a cassette is
>>> plugged into
>>> position, the controller intelligently senses which LED is in
>>> the
>>> cassette and provides the appropriate amperage, even with the 3
>>> cassette system.
>>> d. The controller also allows the user to change intensity so
>>> that
>>> you can balance different channels for optimum imaging.
>>> e. Finally, and as a past high school teacher, I loved this
>>> one...
>>> Fraen has engineered less expensive "baby" systems in Blue
>>> and Royal
>>> blue, so that we can finally get fluorescence into teaching
labs.
>>>
>>> That's the story. I hope it was helpful. I am at
>>> Neuroscience this
>>> week and LEDs are, indeed,grabbing a lot of interest.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Barbara Foster, President
>>>
>>> We've moved!
>>> Microscopy/Microscopy Education
>>> 7101 Royal Glen Trail, Suite A
>>> McKinney TX 75070
>>> P: (972)924-5310
>>> Skype: fostermme
>>> W: www.MicroscopyEducation.com
>>> <http://www.microscopyeducation.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>> MME is now scheduling customized, on-site courses through
>>> December. Call us today for details.
>>>
>>> P. S.
>>> Need a good general reference or light microscopy text for next
>>> semester? Call us today to learn more about "Optimizing LIght
>>> Microscopy". Copies still available through MME... even for
>>> class-room lots ... and we give quantity discounts. Just call
>>> us here
>>> in the MME office for details.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 07:21 AM 11/6/2007, Gerard Whoriskey wrote:
>>> >Search the CONFOCAL archive at
>>> > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=confocal
>>> >
>>> >Hi Glen,
>>> >The argument for LED systems is very strong on reliability
>>> and operational
>>> >costs and is continually improving with regard to
>>> performance, measured in
>>> >choice of wavelengths and intensity.
>>> >I assume that in your confocal set-up you are only using the
>>> mercury based
>>> >bulb system to check and align samples and that you only
>>> need excitation
>>> >regions that match the laser lines you are using. An LED
>>> system that you
>>> >can switch on and off as you please is ideal for such
>>> applications and a
>>> >very cost effective replacement to bulbs.
>>> >Commercial bit:
>>> >We have only recently included 445nm and 505nm options to
>>> our range. Now
>>> >users can choose from 7 options of 400nm, 445nm, 465nm,
>>> 505nm, 525nm,
>>> >595nm, and 635nm.
>>> >I will contact you directly with more commercial information.
>>> >
>>> >Best Regards,
>>> >
>>> >Gerry
>>> >
>>> >Gerard Whoriskey
>>> >Development Engineer
>>> >CoolLED Ltd
>>> >CIL House
>>> >Charlton Road
>>> >Andover
>>> >Hampshire
>>> >SP10 3JL
>>> >
>>> >Mob: 07789535762
>>> >Tel: +44 (0) 1264 321321
>>> >Dir: +44 (0)1264 320984
>>> >web site: www.coolled.com <http://www.coolled.com/>
>>
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